Creating an Age-Neutral World

with Ashton Applewhite,

Journalist, Author, Activist

This week on the Art of Aging, host Rev. Beth Long-Higgins chats with Ashton Applewhite, a leading advocate against ageism and author of “This Chair Rocks.” In this conversation, Ashton shares her journey into age advocacy, emphasizing the need for inclusivity and challenging negative stereotypes about aging. The discussion highlights the importance of community, the slow but essential progress in combating ageism, the role of social networks in promoting healthy aging, influential figures who have shaped age equity, and more.
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Notes:

Highlights from this week’s conversation include:

  • Ashton’s Origin Story (1:02)
  • Starting a Blog (2:29)
  • Self-Publishing Experience (5:14)
  • The Importance of Community (9:49)
  • Learning in Public (11:01)
  • The Challenge of Ageism Awareness (16:27)
  • Global Ageism Awareness (18:51)
  • Rebranding Old School (19:56)
  • Who is Missing? (23:13)
  • Energy in Advocacy (24:12)
  • Necessary for Some, Good for All (26:10)
  • Creating Inclusive Spaces (27:25)
  • Final Thoughts and Takeaways (30:33)

 

Abundant Aging is a podcast series presented by United Church Homes. These shows offer ideas, information, and inspiration on how to improve our lives as we grow older. To learn more and to subscribe to the show, visit abundantagingpodcast.com

Transcription:

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 00:07
Hello and welcome to The Art of aging, part of the abundant aging podcast series from United Church Homes. On this show, we look at what it means to age in America and in other places around the world with positive and empowering conversations that challenge, encourage and inspire all to age with abundance. Today, I am pleased to and to welcome Ashton Applewhite to the podcast. And Ashton is author of this chair rocks and do we say? Founder, instigator of old school, and I, I’m just going to say old school for right now, because things have changed, and we’ll talk about that in a couple of minutes. So rather than me going into an extensive bio ash den up, what is your origin story into this space of advocating for age equity and ageism awareness?

Ashton Applewhite 01:01
Well, I just started in my mid 50s, which is going to be 20 years ago, pretty soon, that I just realized this aging thing was happening to me. It was not going to be the only person in the world that didn’t get old. And, you know, I don’t think that’s ageism. I think it’s hard to imagine getting old like it’s when you’re a kid. It’s hard to imagine wanting to sit still when you could run around. So being nerdy, I started researching longevity and interviewing people over 80, and learned in just a matter of months it was probably months. It felt like minutes that everything I thought I knew about what it was like to be old was flat out wrong or way off base. So it became obvious really soon, also that there was, you know, that we live in a culture that bombards us with negative messages about how awful it’s going to be to get old, about how tragic it is to encounter any kind of incapacity. And I started looking at where those messages come from and what purpose they serve, and it was obvious really soon that, you know, ages of bias and stereotypes around aging were the barrier to a more accurate and nuanced understanding of late life. So I gotta be in my bonnet about the need to spread the word, so that’s what I’ve been doing ever since it gets more interesting all the time.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 02:25
Yeah, so, so did you kind of create a job for yourself? Well, I

Ashton Applewhite 02:29
had a half time job. I was a writer at the Museum of Natural History here in New York, so that gave me health insurance and a baseline income. So I started a blog, and I laugh now, because I would agonize. I write very slowly. I never had any plan to become a writer. I had never thought I’d become a public speaker. I mean, I have never been intentional about any of this stuff, and I would agonize over in the post. And I was like Ashton, literally, nobody knows that this dog even exists, so no one is reading it. So just relax. But you know, I’m very persistent, and I just stuck with it. It seemed really interesting to me, and it seemed really important to me. A friend who ran an arts festival asked me to do an opening monologue. She picks a theme every year, and she picks aging, and all her friends say, Oh my god, don’t pick aging. No one’s gonna come. It’s so achy and scary. And she tripled her membership because, even though we are apprehensive, or perhaps even because of it, we are hungry to discuss it, because we don’t. And that monolog became the basis of my first talk, and, you know, I just stuck with

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 03:41
it. And so what came? I haven’t looked at the timeline. What came first? So the blog, but then was it? This chair rocks, where the RED first came. The

Ashton Applewhite 03:51
blog then came small public speaking gigs. I also started a separate blog called yo. Is this ageist, which is modeled on yo, is this racist with permission, which was, I was talking with a friend about it, and we she said, the next morning, I was really buzzed, I was really drunk. So I set it up. I set up an account for you. Do you mind? I mean, because I’m not technically, particularly up there like No, thank you for doing that. And so I’ve been feeding that blog ever since, and then eventually I had written one serious book. Writing a book is by far the hardest thing I’ve ever done. It’s so it’s honestly, I don’t mean to whine, but it’s like, so hard. So I was like few Thank heavens, I never have to do that again. But then enough people said, You really need to write a book, so I forced myself to write a book, and all these publishers turned it down. The publisher who had an option, I kid you not, we had like this. I thought I got a fancy agent. I thought they’re going to give me a bunch of money and this will be easy. And we had a big meeting with the marketing people and the PR people and blah, blah, blah. And the editor said, we’re concerned that no one else is writing about this. And I managed to croak, and I knew it was doomed right there, but I said, Gee, not like are you kidding me? You were in the business of putting ideas into the world, but I think you should see that as a feature, not a bug. But no one else offered me the kind of, you know, interest that I thought it deserved. So with the help of my partner, who is a pioneer in electronic publishing, we self published, and after I sold a bunch of copies that way, then I was lucky to sell the rights to a new division of Macmillan called celadon, and they have been just fantastic. Says, No writer ever like years after their book has come out and they continue to support me, I said it’s going to be slow, but it’s going to be steady, and at the risk of hubris, it’s going to become a classic, and you are going to be glad you published it. So I think they are you you can ask them,

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 05:55
yeah, well, it is still being published, and it’s still on the, you know, top 10 list of folks who are interested in this topic. It is. It’s one of the classics that that people need to read, and it’s

Ashton Applewhite 06:08
it’s wonderful that there’s more competition now, you know, it really was the first and now there’s a bunch of really good books in this space, which is amazing.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 06:15
So that leads to a speed fight. To my next point, Ashton, you were very generous. You know my original contact with you besides the TED Talk. And you know this is this ageist and and this chair rocks was Eric Johnson, who was our Del Mar on core fellow in 2019 and here at the Parker center, we had the opportunity for Eric to come work with us because I had been giving kind of workshops, and I’m like, I’m only one person, and I can’t do this myself. How can we put together a curriculum that other people can pick up and use? And so Eric is a filmmaker, so he came to work for us as an encore fellow, and he was to put together a couple of videos that would be used for another day. Older this curriculum, and Eric, he went out and he bought this chair rocks, and through the Encore, fellow program, we attended a program that Janine van der Berg led, and he just jumped into the space

Ashton Applewhite 07:16
bug. You don’t Yeah, because you just think it’s going to be it just ends all year. It’s so unexamined that they’re all these fresh, powerful, you know, ideas right, floating right at the

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 07:29
top, exactly. And so he said, you know you’re the filmmaker, but you know you work on this. And he reached out to you through the old school clearing house at the time, because you had clips, video clips of you talking about some of these things. And I don’t remember if we even knew what the purpose of those clips were, but he said, Could I incorporate some of these into this film I’m doing? And you’re like,

Ashton Applewhite 07:55
Yeah, sure, of course,

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 07:59
yeah. But not everybody would be that generous. And so that’s just that. That’s one of the first things that I’ve observed, and I continue to observe that from Thank you.

Ashton Applewhite 08:09
That’s nice. I mean, you cannot be in the social movement business Ha, ha, ha, about the business card and have a proprietary and zero sum mentality, you just can’t. Obviously, I like to be acknowledged. Obviously, I also like to be paid for my work. But I would 100% rather have my words go out in the world for free than not go out in the world. And I do always say completely sincerely, if you can pay me, great, if you can attribute me, great, if you can’t, if you just want to take my words or my ideas and they may not fit what you do exactly, repurpose them, adapt them, take them. Not

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 08:49
everyone, even those who are in you know the world of social movements that are as generous as you are, thank you. So that’s how I first experienced your generosity. But you know, attending the office hours that old school does every week, and I saw this again recently, so you’ve been at this work now for almost 20 years. You are deep in it. People are quoting you, and office hours is open to anybody who wants to come every Wednesday, and people show up for the first time who have just their eyes, have just been open to ageism, and they come into this zoom space, as well as, I’m sure, other conversations and places where you are, and they are so passionate, and they have so much energy, and they just have to tell Everyone what they’ve learned about ageism, and you very generously sit there and you listen and you encourage, and

Ashton Applewhite 09:48
it’s great. I mean, this is it’s hard. Social change is slow and hard, and ageism, you know, as I just said, is pretty unexamined, and it can. Lonely, and you can feel like you are the only person doing this work, and it’s really nice to be in the community of other people doing this. I learn things all the time. I mean, I’m an introvert. I spend as much of my time as possible sitting in my room in front of my laptop by myself, and so it’s good for me to hear what other people are saying and thinking and to be reminded, you know, that there are a million ways in. And also, it’s a really valuable sounding board for me. I will say I got this question from you and it’s always complicated, right? It’s the answers are never simple. Like, what do y’all think? Or I, you know, here’s what I said. Could I have said it better? So it’s valuable to me too. You know, honestly, I’m not being like fake humble here well,

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 10:43
and it is such a good model. There’s a philosophy called gracious space. And one of the tenants’ principles of graciousness, of providing gracious spot space, is being willing to learn in public. And that’s what you’re talking about doing.

Ashton Applewhite 11:00
It’s funny, someone said that about me just last night, and I really it just comes easily to me. I am, you know, I am rethinking or refining my ideas all the time, and when I am, you know, lucky enough to have someone to say and you know, I wouldn’t say that if I were you or just like refining my point of view, I am super grateful. And you know, aging is hard. In some ways. It’s so much harder than it has to be because we age in a culture that discriminates and stigmatizes on the basis of age. But we each have to navigate this stuff in our own way and with. And so it’s really useful to be reminded of that and not be preachy. I started out preach here, believe me, yeah,

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 11:47
well, and the and the other thing is, you know, I’m always very much aware that when I say things, I’m saying things about later life for people who are older than I am, based on my relationships with people who are already in those phases, and knowing that I haven’t experienced that yet, and when I experienced that, my experience may may reveal to me different things, and I may have to say, okay, when I sent this, you know, 20 years ago, I was wrong,

Ashton Applewhite 12:19
But I hope that doesn’t make you feel ashamed. No, yeah, yeah, I think it’s I mean, one of my favorite bits in the book is a phrase, is something I learned. I went on a journalism fellowship early on, and we went to Johns Hopkins, and there was a bioethicist who gave a talk to us, and he said his mantra was a Mexican saying that the appearance of the bull changes when you enter the ring, right? It looks different to the matador. Yeah, excellent. I shortened that to make the bull look different. It’s what psychologists call the psychologist fallacy, this sort of presumption that we could ever know what another person is experiencing and what matters to them, there’s a funny anecdote in the book by a Gero psychiatrist who worked in a giant Old, old people’s home in Miami, and woman comes in, she’s a million years old, and she’s been married for almost all those years, and her husband has just died, and he says, I’m so sorry about your loss. And she said, he was an awful man, and I am really happy to be free. And she, even though she was in her 90s, she, like, had five or six really good years there. So we can’t ever know, and because we live in this ageist enabled society, a society that also is terrified about the loss of capacity, physical or cognitive capacity, huge shame and silence around that. So we presume when we see someone who’s older, or see someone walking with a walker or whatever, we think, ooh, their life must be really hard. It must be devoid of intimacy or comfort or fun or joy. Go talk to them with an open mind and find out what their life is really like. The bull looks different. You don’t know till you get there, and it’s different for one person to experience that same set of circumstances very differently from another person.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 14:06
Exactly. You know my my grandparents, I think the seven best years of their marriage were the years that they lived in a life plan community, because my grandfather’s health was such that he needed to be on a floor with nursing care, and Mother was on a floor where she had a room, kind of an independent living portion of the building. And my grandfather was, we could say, controlling, and they got free, abusive, and she was free Exactly. She would go see him every day. But if he was being his Archie bunk herself, she could say, I gotta go. Yeah, it’s another Yeah, sorry. Go on and then leave. And I just imagine her kind of waving to the nurses at this patient on her way down the hallways like he’s all yours. Bye. See you.

Ashton Applewhite 14:55
If there’s another story that reminds me of, I love a story in the book of the other sort of the other way around. Talent of a woman whose mom went in was she. Her parents lived alone. The husband became increasingly debilitated. He got dementia, and they moved into a wonderful assisted living nursing home joint outside of New York City. And her mom, and likewise, he was in memory care, and she lived more independently, but she died after she said, her mom got started doing her hair again and her nails again, not because she had been too busy caring for her husband to tend to those things. She didn’t have the time and space. So she made friends. She had a wonderful turn out to be the last year of her life. She died. The woman who told the story of her sister came to the nursing home to tell their dad, and they weren’t sure how much you would understand. As you can imagine, it was incredibly sad. And they noticed, as they’re at the, you know, by the elevator, that there’s a group of people there, and the nurse says gently to them, those are his friends, and they are waiting for you to leave so they can be with him. It’s a real community. I mean, I think people are wary of moving into assisted living, but the most important component of a good old age is not health, and it’s not wealth, it’s having a solid social network. And you know these, you know senior living places provide that in spades.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 16:18
So taking a look forward at this movement. What do you think are the biggest challenges that are yet to come?

Ashton Applewhite 16:26
Well, I think the short answer is that most bias is unconscious. You can’t challenge ageism or any kind of bias unless you’re aware of it and aware of how it lives between your ears, and that’s a challenge people, you know, people don’t want to do. It’s uncomfortable. The good news is, once you see it in yourself, it is like letting a genie out of a bottle. I see you nodding, you know, then you’re like, oh, it’s all around me. It’s not because I’m a bad person or a lazy person. It is in the structures around us, and we can come together and do something about it. So we haven’t yet thought about ageism, or ableism, really, as much as we have thought about racism and sexism and homophobia, and we need to think about them all. I am not saying one is more important than another. We’re not going to undo ageism without addressing racism, because so many black and brown people don’t get to age at all without addressing sexism, because aging is gendered. I already talked about the overlap with ableism. We need to not think of this as a zero sum proposition. But we are, I think, very ignorant about ageism. So the first big challenge is to raise awareness of ageism. And it’s a pleasure to be able to say this when just I think about 10 days ago, last Wednesday was Ageism Awareness Day, which was launched in Australia just four years ago and has already gotten the backing of Help Age International, the American society on aging and is spreading around the world. When we launched the old school, which you’ve referenced, started as the old school clearing house, you know, my bright idea was, gee, this movement is new. Wouldn’t it be great if people could find all the really good resources in one place, and everything is free except the books we launched in 2018 we didn’t even have a campaign section, and now it contains over 30. And the first national campaign was Australia’s wonderful every age counts campaign. And by the way, anyone can use anything they say or write or print, open source. It is all available to anyone who wants to raise awareness of ageism. So is it a big mountain? Hell yes. But are we making all kinds of measurable progress, quantifiable progress? Yeah, we are. I’m, you know, I’m very optimistic. Am

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 18:52
I remember correctly that you participated in a webinar with them in Australia? Yeah, they

Ashton Applewhite 18:56
did it ageism while we’re in a state. And I still, you know, I have a feed, a Google search on ageism. And a disproportionate number of things come from Australia, because they sow the seed with this campaign,

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 19:08
exactly. And I think that this is perhaps one of the benefits of the pandemic, that technology allows us a little bit more glow to have these conversations, a little bit than we were doing even five years

Ashton Applewhite 19:23
ago. Agreed, yeah, I mean another. It’s hard to call it a benefit, but you know, the conversation around the age of presidential candidates has been hideously ageist and ableist, but it has raised awareness of ageism. And a lot of the you know, from across the political spectrum, people are saying, they may say, I know this is ageist, but those old Coots should shuffle off the I know this is ageist, but is huge

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 19:49
progress. Yeah, true. So do you want to talk a little bit about the rebranding, and then it’s no longer called a clearing house? Sure, I’ll

Ashton Applewhite 19:57
talk about it briefly, but I am honest, but honestly. And I wouldn’t be much more interested in hearing what it means to you as someone on the outside. We started, in fact, partly catalyzed by the pandemic, to bring people together, because we could virtually. We hosted movement gatherings, movement builders, convenings and workshops and stuff. And then we started to host this Wednesday zoom open to all it’s called office hours, and all this is available, really easy to find at Old School dot info. And we realized, like the movement building means bringing people together. So we decided to turn into change from clearing house, which no one knows what it means anyway, but sort of this repository to the old school hub for age equity and ageism awareness to develop more ways to bring people together and to become a place where people can’t who are working to end ageism can list their projects and find people to support and inform that project. So a group is in the process of emerging that will help us do that, because we are few and we are not rich. So hopefully that will emerge as the hub develops

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 21:10
Absolutely and you know, in full disclosure, I was able to really glad I was able to participate in your Summer School this past Yes, we left that

Ashton Applewhite 21:18
out. We brought people together for the first time in person at something we called Summer School in Montreal last August, and we had a waiting list. I mean, I have no idea whether anyone would show up, but 40 people, just the first 40 who said yes to come together and spend two and a half days together to envision a world without ageism, and it was an attendee-led convening. I don’t know about you. Beth, I was a total virgin. I had no idea what that meant. My two colleagues had experience and facilitated the structure, which has a very clear structure and outline. But what happens in each session depends entirely on what the people there decide they want to talk about and watch over, and what things over a very structured process of reiteration and refinement, what we decide collectively is important to us. On the Projects page of the old school hub are 10 guiding questions that we want people who submit things to the hub to consider. Can you answer yes to these questions? And they make me really happy, because I didn’t cook them up. They emerged. They were the distillation of everything that I mean, I’ll let you finish the sentence. You know, everything that these really smart, interesting, committed people arrived at Yeah.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 22:41
And you know, if you would have asked, I think any of us, when we first gathered what we thought would be the outcome, I really was skeptical that anything as clear as those 10 questions, no clue. Oh, and I think they’re really helpful questions, and I just encourage a beautiful and powerful, yep, yep. And I go back and look at them, and can then, and in my own mind, I’m kind of okay, how can we use those here at the Parker center as we move forward? Because I just think they’re really helpful.

Ashton Applewhite 23:11
That’s great. And I and we’re also thinking about, you know, with the help of the hubsters, this group that is emerging, how to frame them in the context of one question that is overarching but doesn’t appear and probably needs to, which is, who is missing? Yeah, are these projects also helping? You know, people from communities that are underrepresented in age adequate advocacy, which is mostly made up of, wait for it, people who look like you and me, right? You know, older, middle class, white women, which, and we, you know, we’re driving this thing, but you cannot retrofit inclusion. We have to build it exactly, and it’s hard and it’s low and it’s healthy, yeah. What

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 23:54
is it that gives you the most energy at this point? Can this long process, I know, for the National Center for Reframe aging, they say it’s going to take a generation. And, you know, who knows? Here’s a generation is gonna happen

Ashton Applewhite 24:12
when my kid is my age. I mean, I said those kinds of finite, yeah, statements are silly. Yeah,

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 24:19
The long haul was a long haul.

Ashton Applewhite 24:21
It’s a long haul. I mean, it’s funny, because exactly what is giving me energy is what is currently kind of exhausting me. I have a lot of energy. I have been working full time on this since August, and I am tired, and I don’t like being this tired, and I don’t like working this hard. I like working really hard, but not all day, every day, so you can see from how I talk, this is the work I want to be doing at the risk of sounding pretentious with that equity lens, right? That’s the hardest part. It’s the most uncomfortable part. I am not interested. In building a movement of old white ladies, right? We and old school are committed to trying to help inform and create and support a movement for age equity that represents us all. Everyone is aging. How do we do something that lifts all the boats and that encourages people to support all these other struggles for equity, right? So that is 100,000% the work I want to be doing, and I’m excited by it. I need to step back a little bit and let you know I don’t know how to run a meeting. I don’t know how to ease my way out of a paper bag. I don’t know how to manage anyone, and I don’t want to learn. But luckily, some of the people who came to summer school do know, and my colleague Ryan is really good at this, and that will emerge. I think, if it doesn’t, then it isn’t meant to be. I mean, one of the liberating things about liberating structures was I’m not the boss of it, and thank God for that, because I truly don’t want to be it. I know, you know, I’m not fake saying that, but that was really, it’s like, it’s, we’re gonna figure this out, and if it takes a really long time, it takes a really long time. Yeah,

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 26:10
yeah. Well, I think the first question kind of gets to what you know, what you’re talking about in just is, is this necessary for some and good for all, who are the some you’re saying, Who are those? Some people, right?

Ashton Applewhite 26:24
Is it good? For all you know, is it helping people with less economic rights and social status? I mean, one of the tough things that I learn, you know, I’m learning all this stuff, and I certainly identify as a feminist, and have for decades, but I had no idea. I just would have thought that if it’s good for white women, it’s good for all women. Well, guess what? That’s not the case. And that was a really, you know, a hard thing to think about, and I’m still working on understanding it. If it’s good for old, white, old, well off people, I should make it about class, really, more than race. So I walked back a little bit. But what is it doing for people who don’t have the time and energy, or a half time job at the Museum of Natural History, right, so that you can afford to spend the time that I could? How are those of us with more time, more energy, more money, making sure that it is necessary for some and good for all that. It doesn’t come at anyone else’s expense. Well, and again, I

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 27:26
I think this is part of your generosity. I think the best that we can do is, how do we help to create the space for voices who aren’t heard, that they can come into the midst of that space and that their voices can be heard and trusted. And so I really,

Ashton Applewhite 27:41
I urge anyone who is listening to this, please look around the room and think who is missing, you know, is everyone in the room the same age. You know, that was my biggest takeaway from summer school. Was the need to reach out more to younger advocates, but cultivate reach out. It’s awkward. It feels weird, but to people who don’t look like you and say, Let’s have lunch, right? You know, say, let’s have a phone conversation. Say, what, what’s, what are you working on? And how can I support you on your terms without expecting anything back, right? And be there for them. And that’s how an authentic relationship forms, and then you can build on that, right?

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 28:22
Well, as Jen, we’re just so appreciative of you giving your time for this podcast, this conversation today. It is really a joy and a privilege to be able to work with you and to see and use the hub as we’re helping now and going forward and now, for the part that I don’t think you’re looking forward to our final three questions that we ask everyone. Are you ready? Sure they don’t have to be profound questions, profound answers, I can tell you some of the more memorable answers that some folks that you know have given us. But first question, when you think about how you’ve aged, what do you think has changed about you or grown with you that you really like about yourself?

Ashton Applewhite 29:07
I think I know myself better and am more confident, for sure. I bet everyone says that. I bet every person and better at figuring out what I want to do, and

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 29:20
What I don’t. I heard that if you’re talking about, you know what you’re doing, and you know, I admire your clear setting of knowing your skills and what you have the energy to do, and using those boundaries to welcome other people with different sets of skills to be able to participate. So, yeah, okay. Question number two, see, you are reflective about these things. What has surprised you most about you as you’ve aged

Ashton Applewhite 29:48
that my hair hasn’t gone gray? Ah, it’s kind of ironic. There’s some but if anyone could use gray hair, it would be me. I. It?

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 30:01
Do you have people question you?

Ashton Applewhite 30:03
If you’re Yeah, I’m sure. I mean, did you believe Ronald Reagan when he said he didn’t dye his hair? I didn’t, but I also don’t want to. I feel really strongly having brought up my appearance, that it’s really important not to talk about appearance, especially for women.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 30:18
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay. Last question, is there someone that you’ve met or who’s been in your life that has set a good example for you in aging, someone that inspires you to what we call age abundantly?

Ashton Applewhite 30:32
Well, I met two people early on. I saw a photograph of him. I was lucky enough to meet Robert Butler. Look at what he has. Yeah, he invented the term ageism, and he started something called the International Longevity Center here in New York. Is kind of my guiding Angel here. And I was really lucky to meet him. He was really generous to me when I had that blog with like, four readers, and I applied to, do, you know, a fellowship with them. And then he’s like, Sure, which was, you know, fantastic. And he gave me some very subtle course corrections that were very useful to me. I was at the time interviewing people who worked, which meant paid employment. And he said, you know, if you get up in the morning, you’re aging productively. I didn’t know what it meant, but I knew it was important, and then I figured out over the years what it meant. And another person who influenced me a lot, her book really, really radicalized me was a age scholar named Margaret Morgan, Roth galette. She’s just, she writes a book every five minutes, so I hate her for that. Her latest is just coming out. It’s called American elder side, and it’s about the preventable death of so many older people during the COVID pandemic. But I just did this like a pilgrimage to her house, her book called age wise, and she has another great book called age by culture. And it just made me think about the structures and systems that frame our aging. And I made a little pilgrimage to her house. She has a lovely house outside in Brookline, Massachusetts. I didn’t know, I think about it now, you know, I didn’t know what I was asking. She couldn’t help me. She couldn’t help me figure out what I wanted to do with this. She was just gentle and nice and supportive. I mean, she’s fierce also, but so she was another person who really helped set me on my path.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 32:25
Excellent, excellent. Well again, thank you, and thank you to our listeners for this episode of The Art of aging, part of the abundant aging podcast series from United Church homes. And we want to hear from you what’s changed most about you as you have aged, what has surprised you most, and how do you decline abundant aging? And who is your abundant aging influencer? You can visit us at www dot abundant aging podcast.com to share your ideas. You can also give us feedback when you visit the Ruth Frost Parker center for abundant aging website at www. United Church homes, all one word.org, backslash, Parker, hyphen center and again, thank you and be on the lookout. Ashton does not sit in one place for very long, and it can be heard on all kinds of webinars and podcasts and speaking engagements near you, if not just by your computer. I think Ashton, my observation is now that ageism away today is becoming a little bit more known and that it’s being centered on October 9. I think September and October are going to become the two heaviest months for folks, for

Ashton Applewhite 33:43
your lips, to God’s ears, and you’re clearly the people to be saying that too,

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 33:48
in terms of speaking engagements and all other kinds of opportunities. But my

Ashton Applewhite 33:52
the website is this, Chair rocks.com which links to all these other things, the book to you. Is this just my appearance calendar, so I’m easy to find.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 34:01
And please check out the old school hub, the new logo. I loved your description of the logo. Do you want to just briefly give your synopsis of what it means to you? No, you tell it, well, it’s an O and an S, and in the middle of the O, there’s a square, so it kind of looks like a bolt, yeah. Then yeah, yeah. And, but the all, and then the way the s, their font, that the S is there, it almost looks like a snail. And so the symbolic of the fact that this is slow work and that we’re trying to make it stick, trying to build something, yeah, trying to build something using the nuts faults that are needed for social movements, so

Ashton Applewhite 34:44
Yeah, or like that old school dot info, same URL, thank

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 34:48
you. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you to all you that all you do and for being generous in inspiring many of us. Literally, thanks for having me.