Changing the Narrative to End Ageism

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 00:07
Hello and welcome to The Art of Aging, part of the Abundant Aging podcast series from United Church Homes. And this show we look at what it means to age in America and other places around the world with positive and empowering conversations that challenge, encourage and inspire all to age with abundance. Our guest today is Kris Geerken. Kris is co-director of Changing the Narrative which is a leading initiative to end ageism and ageist beliefs based in Denver, Colorado. Kris also developed the Age Friendly healthcare initiative, including producing the film antidotes for ageism, which makes the case for self advocacy and your healthcare journey as you age. She has also advocated for the value and importance of intergenerational relationships and their role in driving positive societal change. I met Kris at the American society on aging conference earlier this year. And I’m excited that we now work together on asase, ageism and culture Advisory Council. And I am very excited that Kris will be a part of our annual Ruth Ross Parker’s symposium in October this year. And you can register for that either to attend live or online by visiting United Church homes.org, backslash 2023 Dash annual dash symposium. So welcome, Kris. And as we get into it, why don’t you tell us about changing the narrative, the organization and how it came to be?

Kris Geerken 01:40
Thanks so much, Beth. And it’s such a pleasure to be here and excited about this opportunity. So to share a bit about changing the narrative and how it’s evolved and how it started. It began in 2018. It was founded by Janine Vanderburgh. And back in 2018, it was based on the FrameWorks Institute Research on aging and how to address ageism. And what we can all do about that. And the work has consistently been for the past five years is rooted in helping us and ageism. And we do that through these innovative programs and campaigns that have evolved over time, based on the needs that we are seeing from the public and getting feedback on what needs to be addressed as far as what ageism is, what it looks like how we’re talking about it, and how aging itself is being portrayed in our society. And initially, it was just a local Colorado initiative. And Janine is doing this on her own and going out in person to different venues, to do presentations on educating people about ageism, and all that goes with that, and the negative connotations with it. And most importantly, actionable steps like what can we do to become advocates and to make a change so that we can end ageism. And over time, it’s evolved to add in several campaigns, which I’ll get into. But that’s when we began and since then have grown, but we are a small group. And we’re now a campaign of the next 50 initiatives.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 03:17
Fantastic. And I guess I was surprised to learn that changing the narrative just started in 2018. And when you consider that two of those years were significantly deep in a pandemic, it’s actually amazing what all you have been able to accomplish. I just want to pause right here, because you and I know what we’re talking about. And I just want to give a brief definition of ageism, just in case there are folks who are listening who may not completely know what that is. And ageism is how we think, how we feel and how we act towards other people and about ourselves based on how old we think somebody is. So it has to do with prejudice, discrimination in stereotypes. So I just wanted to put that definition out there, to make sure that everybody kind of has a common understanding. So that’s how changing the narrative gets started in this work. And tell us the story about how you connected with changing the narrative and your journey with this organization. Sure,

Kris Geerken 04:27
I’m happy to share about that. So it’s evolved over time. But how I initially came into connection with Janine and the work she was doing changing the narrative was that I was pursuing my master’s in health administration degree. And I was interested in finding a program for my capstone project and just one of my strong interests has always been aging issues, and I earned my bachelor’s degree when I was in my 40s. And it’s in human development with a concentration of aging issues. And so I’ve always had that passion. I worked in hospice, and those are all things that are really near and dear to my heart. And in my 50s. Now I am in my 50s. When I earned my degree, I wanted to find something that brought in age related issues, but also intergenerational issues, because I just see that bigger perspective on things like that. So I saw this workshop, Janine was hosting and it was all about ending ageism. And I’m like, That’s curious. I don’t know anything about ageism. And I took the workshop and was just like, light bulbs going off just really resonated with me because I, at the same time realized, even though I had an education and aging issues, I had never learned about ageism, and I couldn’t believe that I had never learned this topic. Before. It was new to me. And I’m like, this is really important. People need to know what ages it is, because we will all be impacted in some way shape or form. By age. Um, and we don’t even know it, we don’t, we never hear about it. So I thought this is really important to get involved with. So that was my beginning. And then I was actually fortunate, Jeanine had this idea for my capstone project that she had wanted to implement, but didn’t have the time to do it. And it was to create an intergenerational toolkit about ageism, talking about getting people of all ages together to talk about ageism, and aging, and what that’s like for all of us in different stages and ages in life. And so I was able to do that capstone project for her and then was ultimately hired by her to be part of changing the narrative, which I’m very thankful for, because I love the work that I do. And that toolkit that we have back, that was back in 2019. And it reached people all across the country, and even people in other countries, and we did not anticipate that would happen. But that also then spoke to us that there’s clearly a need and an interest to carry on these conversations with people of all ages. And it’s resonating with people. So and since then, just in these last five years, we have reached people in all 50 states with the work that we do and 43 countries. So it’s an issue that is rising up to the top. So we’re happy about that, because that’s going to help us end it.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 07:22
Yeah. And actually we’re in the midst of a decade to overcome ageism, through the World Health Organization, so this is not just an issue that is unique to the United States, although we have our own influences and things that we need to overcome. But ageism exists around the world. And I don’t think that misery doesn’t really suit that company. But I think that there’s also a myth out there that there are so many other cultures who value elders. And even in cultures that do value their elders, there can be a degree of ageism, because it can happen in so many different forms. So as we think about our culture, one of the many ways that I’ve appreciated changing the narrative, besides having attended one of Jim’s workshops myself, along the way, is I was so excited when I believe it was in early 2022, when I got an email that said, shared that you had lost a challenge or a competition to artists to create each positive age affirming birthday cards. So first of all, I want to give a little bit of background about where that idea came from. And what is it about birthday cards? I think that this is a very unique aspect of our culture, where it’s very easy for us to see ageism,

Kris Geerken 08:59
That absolutely, yeah, we as hopefully everyone watching understands if you go to any grocery store, or drugstore, you see age for Keras birthday cards about age, and the majority of them are negative, right? And so that repetition of these negative stereotypes about aging and being something to avoid, or something to dread, or it’s not helping any of us it actually causes harm. And we know through research, that’s the case. So what happened with Jeanine is in doing this work on ageism, she was so frustrated and shut up with just seeing those consistently negative cards about getting older. And she’s like, why are there no choices to choose a positive card about aging and celebrating it? And so that was what prompted her to commission artists and put that out there. And so now this year, we’re in round two and earlier this year launched a whole set of new cards from artists from across the country. The first round was artists within Colorado. So the second round was the card As a country, and it’s just age positive birthday cards, because we all should have a choice in the cards that were, you know, for choosing a birthday card, there should be eight positive ones so that we have more options, right. And that’s also just changing the narrative on this consistent negative message to flipping that. And we need to just become more conscious and aware that there are positive ways to view our aging, and why should it be self-deprecating and negative? It definitely does not need to be that way of hate. So that was what prompted it. And we also love creativity and just engaging with artists and whatever we can to support, you know, local artists and national artists, because that’s also really important for us is that self expression as we’re aging.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 10:50
Yeah. And besides the fact that I love the cards I actually spent last night going through the stack that I bought for this year, and kind of putting them in some semblance of order. I never would buy birthday cards ahead of time previously, but now I have a stack. I heard Janine, you know, talk about this a little while ago, she said, Yeah, we’re not trying to start a whole new stationery company. But I just appreciate the way you’ve gone about this. And you’re really trying to influence others who are in that business to change the messages that they’re sharing. And so if anybody’s listening to this, who has a connection to any of the large card manufacturers, let us know. And I’m sure that changing the narrative and others would be more than glad to help provide some education and some statistics about why this is important. And maybe the increase in business that these independent folks are doing because of the age positive messages that they’re providing. Yeah, yeah.

Kris Geerken 11:53
In 2021, Janine was the keynote speaker at the greeting card industry conference. And that was a big deal. Because at that conference, people were coming up to her afterwards, saying they never realized that the cars they were creating were ageist because they didn’t understand what each of them was. So that was a big eye opener. And this birthday card campaign that we have created has actually gotten international attention. So it’s potentially moving the needle.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 12:24
That was absolutely wonderful, wonderful. So, you know, as changes are being made, in my mind, I’m thinking, Oh, my gosh, I’m gonna have to change my illustration. Because whenever I talk about ageism, I tell people the best, most consistent wait place to go to see examples of ageism or the birthday Carlisle’s is what if we get rid of all those ages, birthday cards? Suddenly, we have to think of other illustrations to share with people by how they can find it in their everyday lives. That would be a great problem. That would be a great problem. Yeah, yeah. So birthday cards are just one of the things that intergenerational relationships do, don’t they? How is that toolkit being used and you want to talk anymore about where that’s gone after your capstone project?

Kris Geerken 13:15
Sure. Yeah. So after the capstone project that was out there for the public, and so it’s on our website, it’s free for anyone to download and access and use and invite people that you want to connect with and have these conversations. And what then ended up happening was COVID, which came about in early 2020, March of 2020. And that shifted our direction we had intended for the toolkit to be used for in person get togethers. So we had to quickly transform it to make it also virtual so that people can use it virtually and connect that way. So we did that because of the pandemic. And so now it can be used. It’s designed so that it can be used in person and virtually. And we are in the process right now of updating it again, because that was a few years ago, just to bring in more information, because New information has come out about ageism, just even last year, I mean, almost every month, it seems that the new research is coming forward, which we’re really happy to see. So with that we always update all of the work that we do with what is new and being learned out there about ageism, and its detrimental impacts on our lives. So it’s in the process of one more reiteration. And, you know, we’ll keep coming around to that and updating that, like we do with all of our work. Yeah.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 14:35
And as you said, there’s an increasing, I think, increasing amount of research in this area. And so keeping up with that can be challenging, but also very exciting because the research that’s being done is really exciting as well. Really very revealing. So I know that there’s another area that that is that you’ve been working on that’s kind of near and dear to you. And this is a place where ageism rears its ugly head. And we have to come at this from a variety of different ways. It tells us about how you started working on the toolkit for ageism and healthcare.

Kris Geerken 15:18
Yeah, so our interest in the health care campaign has many components to it. So we have presentations, we have a short film that we CO produced with the Boulder County Area Agency on Aging, all about what ageism looks like in healthcare and what we can do about that. And we have a discussion guide that goes with that film. But all of this came about because the whole campaign itself on healthcare was because of what we were seeing happening during the pandemic. And when the pandemic first came about it was being framed as an older person’s disease. And people were dismissing it or not taking it seriously, which is a reflection of the ageist society that we live in. And leaders in leadership positions were making decisions that were detrimental and harmful to older adults across the country, and also situations of living. So we felt called to action to create this campaign, so that we could highlight and illustrate like, what does he don’t work like in healthcare, what’s happening for people? And most importantly, what can we do to change that reality? Because it’s dangerous for all of us, right? And why it’s so passionate to me is I’d have a Master’s in Health Administration. And I’ve always been interested in health care. And I know Well, the reason I pursued the master’s degree was because I suspected from personal experiences that the healthcare systems that we have are disjointed, fragmented and siloed. And by getting my degree I was all confirmed. It’s true, definitely. There’s a lot of work to be done to just find different ways of providing better care. And there’s lots that needs to be resolved there. And so it ties into ageism, because, you know, we’ve learned over time and continue to learn that ageism does exist in healthcare settings. And people need to know how they can receive better care, what can they do to be proactive in taking actionable steps to get better care? So that’s why we’ve created different resources all our free on our website, for people to change their conversations with health care providers, what can they do to you know, get the care that they’re actually needing what aligns with what matters most to them, more person centered, all of that kind of language. It’s so important and the fact that people don’t know they, first of all, don’t really know any ageism is starting there in educating them about what ageism is. And then how does that impact my health? And what can I do to have a better healthcare experience?

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 18:01
Yeah. And literally, ageism, healthcare is a life and death situation. I was speaking with someone just last week, and I began talking about ageism. And he raised his hand and he said, I can give you an example that just happened three weeks ago, his husband had not been feeling well. And they took him to the hospital. And it took a very long time for folks to see him. I think they kept him overnight. And basically, they sent him home with some pills, and said, just follow up with your doctor. And he went home. And two hours later, he died. And his husband said, you know, he was just dismissed because he was a 78 year old man. I could just tell the doctors were not taking it seriously, what he was feeling was happening within his body. That’s, that’s ageism, that’s an assumption that because of the age of this person, for whatever reason, we’re not going to take it seriously. So

Kris Geerken 19:10
I and in the workshops that I do with the public, I hear stories like that a lot are examples of feeling invisible, feeling ignored, being dismissed, not being taken seriously. And it definitely is correlated to age. And there’s many factors that play into why that happens in the system that exists. And we need to be aware of that as just the public and know what we can do to get better care and how we can have, you know, experiences that are not ageist and to not suffer, and to push a little harder and you know, you can do it in a polite, respectful way. You know, but

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 19:54
It’s a challenge. Well, and we have to learn to do it for ourselves. And we also have to learn how to advocate for others. I have another dear colleague. In just the month that she turned 90, she ended up in the hospital with some heart issues. And they finally discerned what it was. And the doctors came in and said, so we can either just give you medication, and monitor things, or we could do surgery, but the surgery is really rather risky. And she said, Well, tell me about the risks. And you talked about the risks. And she looked at the doctor, and she said, I am not done yet. I am writing another book. I have connections with these individuals who are counting on me. And she went through the list and he looked at her and said, Okay, we’ll do the surgery. You know, but if she had not advocated for herself, and it was during COVID, so there were not other people in the hospital with her, they probably would not have done the surgery and would have tried to handle it with medication. And the result is that she’s here two and a half years later, and who knows if she would have been here if they hadn’t done the surgery. But having that spunk to advocate for ourselves, and make medical professionals see you as a human being who has things to offer the world was really very powerful.

Kris Geerken 21:21
Yeah, that’s it. And I love that story. That’s an excellent example of how it can be right and to step forward and speak up and to engage and let the providers know like, this is my life, this is what matters to me, this is what I’m doing this, these are the things that I’m striving to achieve. You know, while I’m here, I want to do more and contribute and be a part of the world around me. And having the, you know, the ageist stereotype that older adults are retired and sitting at home, watching TV and not contributing and not engaging in life is a stereotype that is 100% ageist, and it’s not the truth that you know, it just we are here to make that known so that people understand that as we’re aging, we’re contributing and involved in the world around us. And it matters. You know, we want to be recognized for that.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 22:19
When you think about the process that changing the narrative has been through. When you think about perhaps launching a new campaign, how do you think about identifying the subject for that campaign? And how do you set the goals? What do you want people to do with the once they’ve participated in interacted in a campaign,

Kris Geerken 22:45
One of the things I love the most about the work that we do is that it can be and is a reflection of what we hear and see in society. So with the health care campaign, that was because the pandemic came about, we no one knew that was gonna happen, we didn’t anticipate that we would create a whole campaign around that topic. But life happened and we reacted, right. And so every time there are things happening that we are seeing out there in the world, we feel drawn or called to take action and create what’s needed to help educate and bring light to the issues. And everything that we do is revolved around or rooted in having activism as part of it and taking action in some way, shape, or form. And so for example, with the health care campaign, we have many different tools and resources that are there for you like one is a kind of a tip sheet, you know, where it’s like the physician or provider says this, and here’s what you can say in response to that. And so you’re not having just that shut down conversation where the same thing, right, so we want people to feel empowered from what it is that we put together. And so like last month, I did focus on health care, but with LGBTQ plus elders, and brought in another organization to address what the experiences are like for LGBTQ plus elders in healthcare and what we can do better and what shouldn’t be done. Because no one should be excluded. And we have a very strong need to bring in the diversity and intersections and show all of the intersections that are with ageism, that just compound that you know, how we experience life as we’re aging makes it more difficult with all the different identities that have historically been oppressed. So this weekend I am doing a webinar focusing on the intersection of ageism and dementia, because as we all know, there are lots of misconceptions and myths around dementia. We don’t understand enough about it as a society and we’re not you know, that information doesn’t come forward. It’s always been more negative stories and narratives Just like with aging, so we want to break down the stereotypes and just bring more attention and knowledge to the public so we can make better choices and be better well informed.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 25:11
Yeah, and I actually participated in the webinar, when you introduced, is it the Visibility Project was that the name, Project perimeter project visibility, and that was put together an excellent film. And I think part of what you’re illustrating is that we can group people, but we all have individual experiences. And so, you know, by pulling together people in some general groups, we can begin to talk about things. But we all have our own experiences of aging, and of ageism, as well. And I like the fact that, you know, from what I have seen and experienced that changing the narrative is such a big issue to tackle, but you’re doing it like, one small step at a time. And if we each take one small step, then we can keep moving forward. And it doesn’t just isn’t this big issue that’s going to overwhelm us and make us feel like we’re powerless.

Kris Geerken 26:21
Right? Yeah, exactly. And addressing it from that one small step at a time, it really starts with us, right, internally, internalized ageism is really at the root of all of it. And that is a reflection of social constructs that exist within society that we have just absorbed since childhood, of negative messages and stereotypes about being older and getting older. And if we begin to recognize that it’s around us, and as you mentioned earlier, a great example is just go to the store and look at all the birthday cards. And when you see that they’re predominantly negative, you think, all right, that’s one way of looking at it. But there’s so much more to that story. So I don’t want to be a victim of ageism, or not recognize that it’s around me, because I don’t want to suffer because of these agents’ narratives that we have all across society. So when we start to recognize it around us, yet on TV shows and movies and ads that we see, right, I can start to think, why is it always that I just see negative stereotypes, images, language around getting older, when maybe I personally know people, that that’s not the case. So why don’t I see those people?

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 27:37
Right, right? Well, it’s how do we understand what’s normal and what’s not normal, and oftentimes, particularly related to aging, the images on the narratives that we receive around us, that we assume are normal, until we realize, Oh, that’s really not normal? And how do we bring those two into balance? Yeah, exactly. Right. And

Kris Geerken 28:01
What is so fascinating about all this work is that, like all things, there’s a spectrum of, you know, experiences across the lifespan for each of us individually. And think about all the identities that we carry across our lifespan, as they evolve and change over our decades of life. And those all contribute to how we’re aging, how we experience it. But if the society that we live in is predominantly ageist, and all that comes at us, even if we’ve grown up in a household, or a community that’s very respectful and revered, aging and thinks highly of it, we live in this society that does not, then tomorrow, that’s really important for us to recognize that, even if I think so positively about aging, there’s ageism, coming at me in my society, so just be prepared.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 28:57
Well, and that we’ve internalized it, and, and, and so has everyone around us. So you know, I approach when I see older adults who are just repeating the ages, narratives, and helping to open their eyes to say, you don’t have to believe that. You don’t have to subscribe to that story. It’s like, oh, but the challenge is for 64 6789 decades we’ve been absorbing those narratives, it can be a challenge to peel them back and really feel what we’re feeling inside in those experiences.

Kris Geerken 29:44
Yeah, and it’s such an excellent point because that’s when you bring it to light to someone, right that you’ve carried on these messages and stories in your head. And when you open their eyes for that there’s also another way of looking at it. We have so few examples of positive aging out there. So they don’t really know where to turn to look for it. Right? Like, yeah, where do I see the positive examples? If I have role models, or visuals or, you know, stories to go on? Where do I begin? Right? And so that’s part of the work that we’re doing is like, ah, positive birthday cards, or other ways to frame your interactions with people, so that it isn’t, you know, demeaning to you.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 30:30
So, Kris, that last comment is a great segue here. One thing that we like to do when we come to the end of our podcast is to ask our guests questions about our own perspective of aging. May I ask these of you? Sure, absolutely. And I’m gonna flip the order of the questions. Just a little bit, again, to pick up on what you were just saying, Is there someone that you’ve met, or who has been in your life that has set a good example for you about what it means to age we would say age abundantly that is aging, in a way that’s contrary to those normalized images of of aging in our culture today?

Kris Geerken 31:17
Yeah, I love that question. And maybe this is unique. For most people, I don’t know. But I have so many positive role models that I’ve experienced across my life, and especially in childhood, but my grandparents were the most important people to me, when I was a kid. So they were my first role models in life, I looked up to them so highly, and just really revered, just who they were right. They were everything. And that was really important to me, foundationally. But then, in addition to that, there were several teachers that I had as a kid, who were very creative, and expressive and artistic, and that were older, and I just have those planted seeds, right in my mind of like, me seeing myself as an older person, and that I can be like that, or those things are possible. So just even as a child, witnessing and experiencing people that were older, in such positive ways and interactions and how they live their lives, set the stage for me, I think, to just believe in how I can age despite what I see in society, I know that it’s real, and it exists. And I have family members who are very proactive, and speak up about themselves and what matters to them in their lives. And then on the different challenges that they’ve experienced, but they have like a fight to them or like some sort of an agency within themselves to like, create the life that they really desire and seek out despite the ageism that pushes against us.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 32:55
Yeah, yeah. And we encourage people to identify these, what we call aging influencers, who are influencing you to age to be your best self. Because I hope that most of us know at least one person who can serve in that way. Or more like yourself, and that those are easy, easier to identify than characters and movies or TV. You know, I went to a church camp several years ago. In late elementary school, junior high and high school, and the only counselor I remember, her name was Elizabeth. And it was a fifth grade camp. So she’s sleeping in a, you know, cabin, wooden floor, but tent over the top. There are a few things that she didn’t do with us. But Elizabeth was 90. No. I’m not going to say that when I’m 90. I’m going to volunteer to be a counselor in the camp for fifth graders that may not be my specialty. But she was just an amazing woman. And as I said, She’s the only counselor that I’ve ever had that has stayed with me. So I have to add her to my list of aging influencers. Okay, ready for the next question? Sure. Yes. When you think about how you have aged, what do you think has changed about you or grown with you that you really like about yourself?

Kris Geerken 34:25
Well, what I’ve recognized about myself, as I’ve gotten older into my 50s, is my passion for learning and being open to new ideas, other ways of seeing the world around me. I have always I think innately had that in me. But I’ve just started to recognize how valuable it is to be very open to seeing other perspectives, understanding other people’s stories from their perspective, it’s not about me and just that openness I love to learn I If I could be in school forever, that would be my wish I would love to always be taking classes. But at the same time also learning just from people, you know. And so the work that I’m doing now and conducting workshops and always hearing from people and their stories and their experiences, it’s priceless. Honestly, like I, none of us have all the answers. Yeah, I never will assume that I have the answers and to have everything figured out. We’re all here to learn from each other. And I just think that one of the most special things about being human is the connections and learning reciprocally.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 35:34
Absolutely. Okay. Thank you. And finally, the last question, What has surprised you most? As you have aged about yourself?

Kris Geerken 35:45
Well, yes. But like, I’ve been embracing aging, and all the changes that come with it, my grades showing and all of that, like, wrinkles. I don’t do anything to counter those things. Like, you know, I just think it’s just what my body’s needing to do. But the thing that surprised me or has been a challenge is, especially since menopause, just that things change in your health, potentially. And everybody’s got a different experience. But certain things with my health have changed, which I attribute to menopause, or I suspect it is, but I don’t know for sure. Because like aging and ageism, we don’t have some great resources or tools or, you know, to look to to find out like, is this normal? Or should I be expecting this? Or what should I do to make this better? So, healthcare is a really important topic to me. And I want to understand more, but I wish that we had some sort of a little dictionary guidebook on aging and all the different ways that can show up for us in our bodies, because that’s something that I don’t think we have enough answers to, and it’s probably just not been studied enough. And at the same time, I recognize all of us have a different experience because of the histories of our lives. But I’d like more answers to what my body is doing, you know, with certain health related things.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 37:06
Yeah. I think for those of us who have raised kids in the last 30 years, we really appreciate what to expect when you’re saying what to expect when you know from birth you still have to do that kind of thing. And like you said, all of our experiences are so different. I think the reason why it doesn’t exist is because they are so different. Well, thank you, and thank our listeners for listening to this episode of The Art of aging, part of the abundant aging podcast series from United Church homes. And we want to hear from you, what’s changed about you, as you’ve aged that you love? What has surprised you most? And how do you define abundant aging? Who are your abundant aging heroes are abundant aging influencers, you can join us at an abundant aging podcast.com to share your ideas. You can also give feedback when you visit the Ruth Frost Parker Center website at www.unitedchurchomes.org/parker-center. And, Kris, tell us again, where can people find you and changing the narrative?

Kris Geerken 38:20
Sure. So our website is changingthenarrativeco.org. And on our website, there, all of the resources, all of the campaigns that we’re doing, everything is on the website. So you can reach out to us through there as well. And, or you can email me it’s Kris@changingthenarrativeco.org happy to hear from you. But definitely check out our website, we have so much on there. It’s all free. And that’s part of the work that we do is just really we think that everything should be accessible to all people so that we can engage them together.

Rev. Beth Long-Higgins 38:55
And can find Kris joining us later this year at our symposium where we’re going to take a look at how we dismantle ageism. And Kris is one of the facilitators leaders who’s going to be present with it that day and particularly talking about ageism in health care. So we look forward to welcoming you here to Ohio, but you can also join online as well. So thank you, and Peace, blessings to you all.