Better Aging Through Technology

with Keren Etkin,

Gerontologist, Entrepreneur, and Author

This week on the Art of Aging, host Michael Hughes chats with Keren Etkin, a gerontologist, entrepreneur, and author, about the integration of technology in gerontology. Keren talks about her work with AgeLab and her book “The Age Tech Revolution.” She also shares her personal connection to aging through her grandparents and her vision for using technology to improve services for the elderly. The conversation covers the challenges and opportunities in the age tech industry, the involvement of major companies and the potential in healthcare and insurance, Ethical considerations of AI in aging, and more.
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Highlights from this week’s conversation include:

  • Keren’s background and work in gerontology (1:05)
  • The motivation for working with older adults (2:26)
  • Connecting technology with the needs of older adults (3:37)
  • Keren’s training in gerontology and its influence on her view of technology (5:26)
  • Understanding age tech and longevity tech (9:08)
  • Evaluating the promise of age tech solutions (10:43)
  • Challenges and rewards of selling tech in the aging industry (17:59)
  • Opportunities in the tech space and the influence of big companies (20:38)
  • Buyers in the tech space and the potential of direct-to-consumer sales (22:07)
  • Longevity Tech and Healthy Years (24:03)
  • Future of Longevity Tech (26:07)
  • AI Applications and Conversational Interfaces (27:53)
  • Reflection on Personal Aging Experience and Inspiration (31:23)
  • Final remarks and takeaways (33:27)


Abundant Aging is a podcast series presented by United Church Homes. These shows offer ideas, information, and inspiration on how to improve our lives as we grow older. To learn more and to subscribe to the show, visit


Michael Hughes 00:07
Hello and welcome to The Art of Aging which is part of the abundant aging podcast series from United Church Homes. On this show, we look at what it means to age in America and in other places around the world with positive and empowering conversations, the challenge, encourage and inspire all to age with abundance. And today I am super excited to have Keren acting on the show today. Keren is one of the OG ch tech for the longevity tech space. She is a gerontologist. She is a technologist, she is the Jaron technologist and you can find her at the German technologist calm. And between her and her team. She is one and personally speaking, she has been one of the most influential actors in my career in terms of navigating the world at age tech, navigating the world of longevity tech, and supporting you know responsible direction in both spaces. She and her team have year over year done the legwork to combine an annual map of key players needed step by category, which is again something I know is not. I don’t just look forward to that many in our space look forward to that. Keren is also the founder of age lab IO, which is an interdisciplinary r&d Center at Shankar college for design, engineering and art. She advises early age tech startups and older care organizations looking to bring innovation to the organizations both one on one and through her own age Tech Academy. Here is a gerontologist and migrated this background technology to redefine her career as a gerund technologist. She has held executive leadership roles at intuition, robotics, and was a co-founder of, an AI based solution for remote care monitoring. She’s a frequent keynote speaker on the subject of aging and technology, and is the author, as I said, of the age tech revolution. And we are so lucky to have her on the show. Keren, welcome.

Keren Etkin 01:47
Thank you so much for this wonderful introduction, Michael, and for inviting me on your podcast, I appreciate it.

Michael Hughes 01:52
We really appreciate you making the time. And for our listeners, just a reminder that this podcast series is sponsored by United Church homes is the Ruth Frost Parker center for abundant agents. So learn more about the center and our annual symposium in October, please visit United Church So Keren, I got to ask you right off the bat, we don’t have enough gerontologists here in the United States, you know, it seems to be a practice that we try to convince people to enter into. But I don’t think you need to convince you to be what led you into your work with older adults.

Keren Etkin 02:26
So I was lucky to grow up very close to my grandparents, both geographically and like the number of times I saw them per week was quite frequent. And I feel like that is sort of what drew me to this occupation, I realized that I really enjoyed interacting and spending time with older adults and the population is aging. And so I would definitely have a job if I went into space. But now it’s like, what drew me?

Michael Hughes 03:01
Yeah, that’s the thing. I always say that I think there’s very few things in this world that are predictive of future demand such as aging and climate change. And, you know, for me, I think I parallel that I’ve always enjoyed relationships with people Old and young. And I think it’s a little bit selfish, you know, looking at, you know, how we ourselves will age and trying to imagine a better world for us and our peers. But in terms of technology, were you always tech savvy, savvy mean, how did you start connecting the possibilities that technology offers with the needs of people as they age.

Keren Etkin 03:37
So I always enjoyed fiddling with new gadgets, and trying out new technology for myself. And when I got into this space, I started my career in community services for the older population in nonprofits, I realized that there were so many challenges that we were trying to tackle on a daily basis. But we simply didn’t have enough staff to tackle them. And we certainly didn’t have the financial resources. And I realized very early on in my career, that technology was something that if we had at our disposal, we could definitely scale it and just provide more services to more people. And so when I got the offer to join Indonesian robotics as the first employee, I immediately jumped at it because I realized that we had the opportunity here to tackle the specific challenge of loneliness and social isolation at scale, which I couldn’t really do at any of my previous jobs. So that is sort of what drew me in. And during my time at the company, I had realized that we were actually part of an ecosystem. With hundreds of startups now. It’s already 1000s of startups. Now we’re using some of the most cutting edge technologies out there to tackle the challenges of aging. And that’s really what led me to create the first version of the H decK market map which has sort of become an annual thing instead.

Michael Hughes 05:01
Yeah, and I love the BH tech market map. But I’m interested, you know, what’s your training and gerontology? I guess maybe a two part question. First of all, is training in that field? Is it primarily a clinical practice? And if so, did you start looking at technology more through the lens of a clinical standpoint?

Keren Etkin 05:26
It’s a great question. So here in Israel, our training was sort of semi academic, semi clinical. So most of my fellow students who went to school with me, were already working in the field as social workers, for example. And I was one of the only ones who was working in the field with no professional training. And so it was very important for me to get a Gerontology degree. And so, part of our studies was training was purely academic, and part of it was clinical, going out into the field, and sort of getting an internship or an apprenticeship. At a senior living facility, for example, you could have multiple options. And so I feel like this is one of very few fields in academia where I can get a degree that is very practical, and really has a strong connection to the field, because many of the people that I learned from, like many of my professors at the university, had decades of experience working in the aging industry. And so many of my classmates also already had held senior roles, because that was a master’s degree. And I felt very fortunate to be able to learn in that sort of environment.

Michael Hughes 06:55
You know, what I think is unique about geriatrics is, in that I’m going to steal a line from Victor Wang, one of our previous guests who said, you know, and Victor runs, you know, caridade coach, which is an AI startup, Black has to start up at this point. Right. So, Victor, but, you know, if I’m a cardiologist, I know everything about the heart, climate. If I’m in geriatrics, I tend to know everything about complexity. And it just seems that in your training, you have the opportunity to see the king of the marriage of all these different influences on wellness, whether it be clinical, or functional, or behavioral. And has that, is that true? And has that tended to shape your view of what’s good and bad when it comes to the world of technology?

Keren Etkin 07:40
It’s an interesting question. I feel like, you know, since Gerontology is sort of a social science, it tends to be softer, certainly compared to math and physics. And so I don’t feel like there is right or wrong, I feel like there are trends that we need to be aware of. And there are obviously, when you look at technology design and user experience design, you have like these general guidelines, you have like these do’s and don’ts of what is considered a good user experience and what is considered a bad user experience. But when I look at it as a gerontologist, I don’t really view it that way. That’s what I want to look at user experience, I usually take my product manager hat, and that is sort of what helps me look through that lens. Yeah,

Michael Hughes 08:35
I guess that sort of speaks to the principles of universal design or design thinking where you really have to kind of look at things through the lens of the end user and how they operate and engage with things. But when you look at the market maps that you put together, I mean, you’re keeping track of a lot of stuff. And I guess, you know, I’ve heard that you can look at this world, you know, both in terms of what we call age tech and longevity tech, do you see a split there? And how do you see the difference between age and longevity? So or is it just the same thing?

Keren Etkin 09:08
So the way I see H tech is technology that is designed to tackle the challenges of aging, first and foremost, for older adults, and then for other key stakeholders in the ecosystem like family caregivers and elder care professionals, and so on and so forth. And when I look at longevity Tech, I mostly view it from the biological angle of longevity related like life extension, treatments and therapies, which I feel serve younger people more than they could serve someone in their 80s or 90s. Yeah, because

Michael Hughes 09:45
I guess, you know, eight, you know, H decK just feels more practical problems. And, you know, I think the it’s very inspiring at least working at United Church homes to have the opportunity to, you know, interact with people in their 80s and 90s and hundreds And just to know them as people and not some, not just a stereotype, and the people need real solutions to real problems that they’re facing. So it must be, you know, satisfying to kind of be in this world of age check, especially with your background in gerontology and try to make that connection between the promise of the technology and the benefit that it can offer in a real humanistic way to people that may be facing it. Yeah, what’s what I’m curious about is really, you know, you have, you know, the promise of age tech to address these problems, that people are facing 80s 90s You know, what, hundreds, but how do you know if that solution is real? How do you know if it really does have that promise? What do you look for? So

Keren Etkin 10:43
First and foremost, I look for what problem it is trying to solve. And whether it is a big and really painful problem, or it’s nice to have. And also, I always ask people, when they’re building HD products, whether they have done user interviews, and whether they currently have any ongoing user testing program, or a beta program in which they get ongoing constant feedback, and really include older adults or any other stakeholder in the design process. To me, that is the best signal that they will eventually get to where they need to be in terms of a product that actually brings value to people and actually solves a real problem kills unfortunately, sometimes you would meet someone who just had an idea, or just had an idea meeting talking to their parents or grandparents. And they just went and built something without actually talking to anyone else. And that, to me, is a red flag. But I want to turn it back to you might call like, what’s your take on this? Because you’ve evaluate plenty of startups here over Yeah,

Michael Hughes 11:58
I would appreciate you asking me but yeah, I mean, I think what stands out for me is, you know, I look at it through the lens of a senior housing provider, homecare provider and aging services provider. And, you know, everything that we do, you know, involves, you know, workflows and involves, you know, at the end of the day, we excel in our industry when we are human. And we can make those human, you know, connections, because only by building that trust, can you get to the layers that really make up one’s motivation. And if you don’t know what motivates somebody, then they’re never going to be adherent, they’re never going to be, you know, you’re in that pathway or Forbes, towards health and wellness is kind of stymied a little bit. So when I see people present solutions to me, quite frankly, I think it’s easy to point out those that have followed that human centered development path, because usually the UX is a lot simpler, and more intuitive. And they know the top three issues, the top three workflow problems that we have, and they’re very clearly able to explain how they have designed the experience of their solution to make that workflow easier, or to to make that data richer. So I enjoy those conversations. Otherwise, I mean, I think we had Andy Miller on the show. I think this is Andy with the H decK collateral from AARP. And he said, Yeah, you know, we see these presentation decks from different solution providers. It’s kind of like buying a car. It’s like, you know, here’s the Honda Accord. And here’s the Toyota Camry. And here’s this Hyundai Sonata. And all these all these features are down here, all the checkboxes are checkboxes, and then your solution, you know, has all of these checkboxes down here that are checked and your competitors don’t have them? Right? But is it like a heated steering wheel or a fancy headlight? Or whatever it does that really relates to the one problem number one, two, or three that you have. And so I just tend to kind of maybe gloss over a little bit when I get presentations like that. I don’t know if you see similar things, because you must have people come to you all the time.

Keren Etkin 14:03
Yeah, I actually get quite a few decks in my inbox year over year. And you’re right. It is about workflows, especially if you’re selling b2b. And it’s not . I feel like it’s never about technology. It’s never about having a better sensor, in whatever it is you’re making than your competitors. It’s about making life easier for your users, and they don’t really care what technology drives your product if it’s working, and it’s doing what it’s supposed to do.

Michael Hughes 14:39
Exactly. And I think you know, that I often find that when we come into, you know, solutions with hardware, you know, where, you know, there’s a gizmo out there that can do a lot of terrific things. But, you know, we’ve done analysis on our end where we would do you know, we would put a solution in place to solve a problem that we have and we would always go into it with an ROI calculation, you know, I want to know, you know, tangibly, how is this thing going to help. And by the way in that ROI calculation, it’s not just dollars, it’s also, you know, things like time savings, it’s adding value to the relationship. And by the way, the feedback is also gut feel, you know, I mean, you know, we really do trust our workforce and tell us if something works or not. And the best example I have are the intuition, robotics heads that we use in dementia care, because I don’t know how it makes people less agitated, or better sleepers would have, I just know, they just say it works. And that’s great. But we can have solutions come in, and it can, on paper, have that ROI. But if it’s, we constantly have to fiddle with it, if we have to, you know, recalibrate it, if we have to, if there’s additional staff workflow that just causes hassle net goes out the door for us, unfortunately, and I find that, you know, when we that shows up a lot in hardware solutions, and, and that’s something that we are, you know, we have to do some extra due diligence against if we do have that presented, it’s not to say that we’ll never do it. But it’s just those questions that we have to ask them that aspect, including, if the thing breaks, how do we return it? When will another one come back? I mean, those are all things, I encourage hardware providers, you know, to think about, I don’t know if you feel the same way.

Keren Etkin 16:20
Absolutely. You know, the same, there was a saying that hardware is hard. And it is, it’s very challenging for both the company and for users, especially early adopters, and to really work through the kinks. But I feel like if it brings enough value, and if it does, if you are able to get a short ROI, then you should be able to get adoption. But like, the main premise that you have to work with is that your solution has to provide more value than it is a headache to handle and work on and like you can’t make your users or anyone have to work harder in order to adopt your technology.

Michael Hughes 17:09
That’s a great, that’s a great statement. And, and I definitely don’t want our viewers or listeners to reflect on that. You know, I think about our world as well. And I think that it’s important for people to understand that, you know, we have a very, we have a shortage of workers here in the United States. And there has been this element, I think, in big tech, you know, this sort of the cliche of, you know, move fast and break things. And, you know, when you’re that sort of a mindset, I think people are a little bit shocked to find that maybe the cycles are slower, or that you have to work longer to get buy in, or I don’t know, what sort of particularities Have you found, maybe in the senior living or in the age tech space that may be a little bit different from, you know, somebody that just wants to do any other type of technology?

Keren Etkin 18:00
Well, it’s, I’m not trying to be the best person to answer this question. Because I’ve never been in any other industry, I can speculate that the sales cycles in aging tend to be longer than they might be if you’re selling, let’s say, a software product to other software developers, right? So you have to get buying from multiple people, when you’re selling to big organizations, you have to have some sort of, sometimes regulatory approval if you’re selling to organizations that are regulated by some government agency, or whatnot. And so I feel like it is a challenging industry to sell to. But also, I feel like it might be more rewarding on a personal level to founders because you can actually see how your product and how your technology is actually helping real people solve real world problems. That is, yeah, and that is like

Michael Hughes 18:59
go back to the Marc Benioff movie. Yeah, I’m sorry, we can go back to the marketing opportunity again, Keren, that you know, any solution that people are sort of driving towards the in the age tech space, I got to think it’s going to be the demand for them, it’s just going to be 10 times larger in 10 years or so. You know, with the magic. I can’t remember. What is it like? 2034? There’s gonna be more people than there’s some sort of magic number. Yeah, I mean, for like, for the beginner to think about me?

Keren Etkin 19:24
Yeah, like in the next decade or so there will be more people in the United States over the age of 65 than under the age of 18. Right. So yeah, if you are in this for the long run, the aging space is definitely like the place to be. Yeah.

Michael Hughes 19:39
And I think that the foundations that you build in the age tech space now will give you an edge over when the big companies start seeing and looking at this space. I mean, just because that 2034 date is 10 years out. And I think really big companies that can afford to hire futurists and people like that are Probably looking 10 years out, I’ve started to see, at least in the circles we run in, in the age tech and longevity tech space, I have started to see some of the large organizations, particularly when you look at the ARP H decK collaborative, you know, come in and start being very curious about this space, and start, you know, really wondering what’s happening in this space. And that’s where I think anybody it’s in the space now is going to become even more incredibly valuable, because they’re going to have all of this experience, not just learning about older people and their use of age tech, but just the different market channels, and the ins and outs of the regulatory and all of those things.

Keren Etkin 20:38
Yeah, 100%. And the big companies out there are already looking into this space, if you look at the Amazons and apples and the Googles of the world, they’re already looking into the space, they’re already taking action, to grab some share of the market with some product or some acquisition or some investment. And the disadvantages that they have is that they’re just huge companies, it takes them a long time to move things and it takes them a long time to launch and to ship new products to new markets. And so that’s where startups I feel have the upper hand right now. And also, I mean, if we look at the buyer space, they’re definitely everyone who has a large client base of older clients, for example, insurance companies, they’re all like actively looking for startups to work with, to pilot to to acquire. So it’s already happening. It’s not maybe it’s not on the news, if you’re not following the type of news that you and I are following, but it’s already happening for sure.

Michael Hughes 21:52
Is that the biggest opportunity in each tech rant right now Keren? Is it? Is it insurance? Is it health insurance? Is it like the 1000 pound gorilla in terms of opportunity? Or are there other things that you think people should be paying attention to?

Keren Etkin 22:06
So the probably the biggest buyers right now are probably healthcare providers, simply because, and, and also insurance companies simply because they can see ROI or the it’s, or it might be easier for them to show ROI. If you’re like, in the preventive health space, for example. It’s very easy to show ROI in those types of spaces. But you know, like the Holy Grail, what everyone, or what a lot of startups want to do is like, dude, sell direct to consumer, right? Because that is like a huge share of the market. But it’s also really expensive and difficult to crack for a startup that doesn’t have hundreds of millions of dollars in funding.

Michael Hughes 23:00
Yeah, I always I mean, I always like to tell tell startups that definitely start by doing, you know, do Google ads, you know, get do consumer directed outreach, see if consumers will buy your product, because even if it turns out to be b2b, and most of the time b2b seems to be the better path, you’ll at least have the experience of knowing how to talk about your product to consumers, and convincing them but I always just run up to a wall here, at least, you know, we live in Western societies, aging is not something that people generally look forward to. And you know, the consumer market just really is all about, you know, just seems that you have to convince people to eat their vegetables, or it’s only something that happens, you know, after a crisis happens, and then you have to sort of, you know, quickly navigate that space. But if we go back to our idea about what longevity technology is all about, you know, I understand the lens around me, you know, you’re looking younger for longer, you know, and things like that. But I wonder what you think about aging trends in general. And what I mean about that is that we keep hearing that, you know, our generation or our children’s generation, our children’s generation, they not only will live longer, but they’re going to have more healthy years, and more healthy years, you know, that that seems to create these new opportunities for like, you know, third act or fourth acts of life and the world of work and the work of world of connection. Do you see kind of an emergence in that thinking or sort of, I guess, is that a foundational premise of longevity technology? And do you sort of see this emergence of technology solutions that may go beyond just looking younger longer, but may think more about what do you do with those extra healthy years?

Keren Etkin 24:58
So that is in My opinion probably one of the biggest untapped opportunities, really helping people take advantage of this new act of life that they now have that their grandparents, and great grandparents never thought that they could have, right. So we already see it like the baby boomer generation that people not only live longer, but have more healthy years. And they start thinking about like the second or third act in their career, many baby boomers are launching new businesses, right becoming Boomer printers. And so we already start seeing, like this is a trend. However, we don’t see quite as many startups addressing those healthy years, this new act of life, as we see startups addressing the challenges that arise when people are further down their aging journey in their 80s, when the challenges are just bigger, and there are more of them. And it may be harder to get people’s attention. Yeah,

Michael Hughes 26:07
I didn’t really think about that, you know, appearance is that you know, you have it’s not just that you have this sort of we may see just this general transition from age to longevity Tech Tech, maybe a decade from now as we start moving through it as we start to, I guess, normalize the solutions to problems that people are now having a greater scale with functional ability with cognitive issues and so on, we’re gonna have a lot of great, hopefully knock on wood, knock on my head, you know, advancements in medicine that will enable that those extra years. And so, there’s probably going to be a point where longevity tech is going to be bigger than age check. If I can kind of get the math in my head Correct.

Keren Etkin 26:51
Could be, you know, in the way that things are progressing in our world, I wouldn’t rule out any scenario. I mean, it’s possible that we will wake up tomorrow and learn that someone has released an appeal that sort of pauses our eight year process the same way. We heard recently that they released a shot like this that stops you from gaining weight. Right? Right. So I wouldn’t rule out anything at this point, honestly.

Michael Hughes 27:23
Oh, my last question. Well, actually, no, this is not my last question. We always ask our guests three questions about their history, or experience aging. And after this question, do you mind if I ask those questions of you? Go ahead. Okay. But the question I’ve got is, have you ever heard of artificial intelligence? And if so, I’m joking. I’m so sorry. I’m joking. But in terms of AI, where do you think is the most exciting application for AI in the age tech world, within the next year or two.

Keren Etkin 27:53
So I’m super excited about having conversational interfaces that are so much better than what we’ve had up until November of 2022, when open AI launched their Chachi pt. And so I recently released a piece about this health assistant, that the World Health Organization launched studies, purely conversational, you can use your voice and ask health related questions, and you have this avatar, fetching you information from the World Health Organization database. So that is, like one of the most exciting use cases that I’ve seen. And I think there are so many other use cases that could benefit from having a great conversational user interface, because we live in a world where there is so much knowledge out there. And it is impossible for any human to sift through and really understand sort of where do you find reliable information on particular topics? And what is even the right question to ask when you’re Googling stuff. And I feel like having conversational interfaces and specific sort of assistance for specific domains can really go a long way towards helping people get the information they need, when they need it from reliable sources. And so that is what I’m super excited about. And also tackling loneliness and social isolation. I think that could also be a great use case for that.

Michael Hughes 29:33
I definitely agree. That’s an area of huge promise. And I know that maybe we’ll have you back for a future show. When this emerges, I know that there’s gonna be a lot of research going on right now. truly explore the limits of where the AI experience can be valuable, and where human beings need to be present. And I think that’s gonna be really interesting as it evolves in the new agent world, both on the social and the social side of things as the Companions but also to kind of generate the information that we We need to understand rising risks and factors that may, you know, put people at risk for hospitalizations and things like that. Where’s the? Where’s the AI conversation appropriate? And then what’s the limit of that conversation? Or how real could it get? Should it get? I would love to have you back and just talk more about the moral and ethical boundaries of AI based solutions. But for our listeners, we have been so pleased to have Claire neck and on the show today, she is the German technologist, you can find her at the German She’s got an amazing book called The Age tech revolution, which I’m guessing you can purchase on Amazon. And where else can you find it?

Keren Etkin 30:42
Amazon is the easiest place. But we also have a link to the ebook on the job

Michael Hughes 30:48
That’s terrific. And obviously lots of great contact through the journey technologist on an ongoing basis. So encourage everyone to subscribe, and have the benefit of what Gartner and your team are doing to keep everyone smart about the ever changing world of H tech and longevity check. But as I said before, Keren, I got your permission already. We always ask our guests three questions about their own experiences around aging. And the first one that I have for you is when you think about how you yourself have aged, what do you think has changed about you or grown with you that you really like about yourself?

Keren Etkin 31:23
This is a great question. I like the perspective that growing older gives you. I feel like the stuff that I used to stress out about 10 or 15 years ago I don’t really care about right now. And that is probably the main thing that I get.

Michael Hughes 31:41
Well, question number two, though, is what has surprised you the most about you, as you’ve aged?

Keren Etkin 31:48
What has surprised me most about me, as I’ve aged? I guess it’s just that it comes back to my first answer. Like the stuff that I thought I would really care about at this point in my life, I don’t quite

Michael Hughes 32:07
know, must just feel so good to know that you’re kind of letting those things go right.

Keren Etkin 32:11
For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, the

Michael Hughes 32:14
third one, though, and I suspect you have an answer here. Is there someone that you’ve met, or someone that’s been in your life that has set a good example for you in aging, someone that inspires us as we sit United Church homes age with abundance, or

Keren Etkin 32:29
That is so easy. My grandmother, who is 90 years old, is the person that inspires me the most. She has such a positive attitude towards life. And she’s always happy. She’s always, like, full of gratitude for what she has. And she sort of doesn’t stress about the things that she may not have anymore because he’s 90 years old. And so she’s like my inspiration to life. And I wish I could have her for at least until I’m 120 years old.

Michael Hughes 33:05
And May we all be as chill as your grandmother. You know, as we age. She sounds like a really great inspiration. And so are you Keren, I mean, I really appreciate you making the time to be on the podcast today. But most of all, I want to thank our listeners. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Art of aging and also for putting up with my allergies by the way, which is part of the abundant agent podcast series from United Church homes and we want to hear from you. What intrigues you about the H techspace. Have you found a cool gadget or gizmo, or technology solution that has really helped you in your aging journey or the journey of somebody that you’ve loved? Are you an age tech entrepreneur, and you want to tell everybody how great your solution is? Visit us at abundant aging You can also give us feedback when you visit the Ruth Ross Parker Center website at Thanks for listening to everyone. We will see you next time.