Addressing the Growing Crisis in the Costs of Long Term Care

Michael Hughes 00:07
Hello and welcome to The Art of aging, which is part of the abundant aging podcast series from United Church homes. On this show, we look at what it means to age in America and in other places around the world with positive and empowering conversations that challenge, encourage and inspire everyone everywhere to age with abundance. Our guest today is Tom Beauregard. And I’ll tell you that I don’t think there’s much he can’t tell you about aging innovation in the healthcare sector. And we’re here to talk about a pretty important subject, which is the looming crisis that we’re going to have in long term care of the affordability of long term care, and how we can start now to address it. Tom has over 30 years of innovation experience across the healthcare, public policy, academia and nonprofit worlds. He is the former Executive Vice President and Chief Innovation Officer for a small company called UnitedHealth Group, where he oversaw r&d for both UnitedHealth and optim. Additionally, he’s a former national practice leader of an Intuit as well as a senior advisor on the Board of Healt. And I think most importantly, he and his team are building something pretty special with their venture HCG, secure, which was founded in 2019. HCG secure is an innovative developer of FinTech solutions, which are meant to address the future costs of long term care our subject today, and Tom was inspired to found HCG secure when he when his parents reached an age where they were unable to flee care for themselves but wish to age at home, and limited by geography, and his parents needs for local resources. He found the process both overwhelming and difficult to find solutions to ensure that his parents are receiving the best possible care from afar. And that’s, of course, not an uncommon thing. Stunned by the lack of coverage and resources to support these needs, Tom made it his mission to create solutions that offer the network and coverage needed for individuals and their loved ones to age comfortably in the places they choose to call home. As you might expect, Tom went to college. He’s a graduate of Hobart and William Smith colleges, and he’s got an MBA from the University of Connecticut. He also received an Emmy for his work at the National Diabetes Prevention Program, in partnership with EY USA and the Centers for Disease Control Prevention. It was called Project not me, and he was executive producer. So Tom, welcome.

Tom Beauregard 02:10
Thanks, Mike. Really happy to be here. Awesome.

Michael Hughes 02:13
And I do want to put a quick plug in for United Church homes Ruth Frost Parker Center, the sponsor of this series, and also have our annual symposium in October. Visit unitedchurchhomes.org/parker-center for more information about its good works this year’s topic and how you can get involved. Alright, so Tom, right into the bat, I gotta ask you, you’ve got the Emmy. Grammy, the Oscars or Tonys go next because I know that’s on your list?

Tom Beauregard 02:42
None of the above, the Emmy was kind of a fun outcome of an important project that we did it in, but now I think that’s the end of my big award career.

Michael Hughes 02:53
Alright, so we’re gonna let it sort of like Sir Elton John’s habit , I guess. Like, he can step into that spotlight. But look, I mean, you’re you, you’ve had a very long and well respected career united, you’re definitely a very well known leader in the healthcare world. But now you’re with HCG, secure, you’ve delved into FinTech, you’ve delved into, you know, the world of long term care. I mean, how does a guy from UnitedHealth find his way into this work?

Tom Beauregard 03:25
Yeah, it’s kind of a two part answer from a professional perspective, when I was at United. You know, we saw all the time that folks in the Medicare market had a blind spot, they just, they had some expectation, and there’s data out there on this, but they had an expectation that somehow Medicare would cover some form of extended care. And we know that it doesn’t, I mean, long term care is covered in the Medicaid market, it is not covered in the Medicare market. So that was a, you know, real source of tension with members, you know, families that were in crisis, and you know, at that moment, realize that they didn’t have adequate coverage. And on the personal side of the equation, and you made reference to this, in your introduction, I get that experience with my parents that was pretty rough over about a four year period, where we were, you know, as a family trying to figure out my father had dementia, that was progressive, and my mom had pulmonary disease, and, you know, I had great clinical resources could network. We thought we could figure this out. But it was, it was a mess. You know, we made all kinds of errors. And as I was going through that hard personal experience, you know, you really start to think about families that don’t have resources, and frankly, don’t have funding to cover all the out of pocket expenses that are associated with whether it’s home care or institutional care. So that’s why I’m passionate about identifying solutions primarily for middle income families in this space.

Michael Hughes 04:55
Yeah, and what you said before about just kind of this surprise, I mean, you I got to think, you know, there’s a sizable percentage of people out there that think that Medicare is going to cover long term care routes, right? Yeah,

Tom Beauregard 05:08
absolutely. And again, there’s a lot of data. And frankly, families don’t even want to think about this. Right? Everybody wants to think that they’re not going to fall into that position later in life. But, you know, the hard reality is 70% of us do.

Michael Hughes 05:24
70% of us do. So that’s why over two thirds of us are going to fall into a need for long term care costs out of pocket, long term care costs. And I just got to think of those families that suddenly are in need. And then they go to their Medicare plan. And it’s kind of a huge surprise, right? Yeah.

Tom Beauregard 05:45
And, you know, if you look at the numbers on this, frankly, it’s late in life, right? People start to have functional decline generally and cognitive decline, or both, when they’re in their late 70s, and 80s. So they’re spent down, you know, from a financial perspective, a middle income family has very little left at that point, they have Social Security, and they have Medicare. But in terms of ability to cover, what can be really significant out of pocket expenses, you know, $50,000 a year roughly for in-home care, over 100,000 for institutional expenses depending on where you live. It’s a deal breaker for families.

Michael Hughes 06:22
Yeah, you know, and we had Bob Kramer on the show last year with the National Investment Center, and we were talking about the same thing. And, you know, we got in the middle low income families, you know, and what we were talking about in the opening, you know, you’ve got, let’s say, I’m just going to pick a persona here, you’ve got maybe an agent couple there in the home that they bought, in a 60s, suburban environment, all the equities, you know, tied up in the home, they are proud to pay off the home. And for I guess, the generation we have now I mean, the people that are aging into their 70s and 80s. I think on average, they didn’t really have as acute an experience with paying for long term care needs, because people would pass earlier. And there was also a higher prevalence of pensions and things like that to maybe cover those costs. That’s all changed, right?

Tom Beauregard 07:12
Yeah, the other thing that’s changed is family structure, right? Families are spread out in ways that they weren’t historically. So if you look at, you know, baby boomers who are heading towards this event, now, their kids are living all over the country. That, hey, I always do think about that family you’re describing, you know, if you think about what middle income means, if you have a 65 year old couple that have a home that they paid for, that might be worth, you know, $200,000, then all their other savings are really in 401 K, and just general savings. So they know they might head into retirement with a $500,000 total asset base. But as a couple, they have a 90% chance of having a long term caravan between them. Right, from an actuarial standpoint, it’ll happen late in life, and their assets are spent down. So oftentimes, what’s left is the house and Social Security and the kids if they happen.

Michael Hughes 08:07
And what sort of cost are we talking about here? You know, I’ve been seeing it. I mean, Genworth always puts out these, you know, costs of care surveys, and, you know, I’ve taken a look at them, look at them for the last six or seven years. And it used to cost an average of $50,000. Now, maybe it’s 60,000. I’ve seen $100,000. I mean, this is not chump change. No,

Tom Beauregard 08:27
you know, the way it generally starts is, you know, folks have declined, and they need some level of support. Sometimes that’s just in home support for a period of time. But typically, this only goes in one direction. A good percentage, a very high percentage of folks can stay at home and not again, to get insurance. See, but, you know, the average long term care claim is less than three years. So if you can keep somebody in their home, over that three year period to the end of life, which is where people want to be, you can, you know, contain this at a level that’s, you know, under $200,000, you know, in that sort of average scenario. So when you start to think about what people need in this demographic, they need a form of extended care that doesn’t, you know, go up to five $600,000, or a million dollars run limit. They just need to cover that sort of average gap. And that makes it more affordable, and it makes it easier for them to access.

Michael Hughes 09:28
I get it, I get it and I think just having resources like that when you’re at your time of need. I mean, I’ve heard that generally families just need a good head start. And then you know that things kind of fall into place. But I’m just thinking of the numbers here. Let’s continue to think about the numbers we’re thinking about here we are in 2024, according to this in early 2024. We’re now 10 years out from that magic date that us in the longevity space, know where it’s like more people over the age of 65 than under the age of eight. team. So the demand for these services, the demand for long term care supports, I mean, I’m just thinking about just sort of like you strike a table in the vibrations hit, they hit families, they hit workforce, they hit Medicare, I don’t think there’s going to be a Medicare Long Term Care Benefit anytime soon. I think the cost of it would be astronomical. But I’m just thinking now about the impact of the Medicaid programs. I mean, you know, it’s, I mean, you say, people don’t like to think about this stuff. But more and more, it’s going to kind of hit us, isn’t it? Well, and

Tom Beauregard 10:33
I think there is growing recognition, right, I think baby boomers have had or are having experiences with their own families. So that sort of Medicare blind spot is starting to disappear a bit as families recognize with their own loved ones that it’s a cluster of financially and emotionally. And your point on the sort of the public sector response to this, the states are starting to move, which I think is really important. So the Washington State model that launched and then got pulled back and is launching, again, with some revisions. There are about 1516 states right now that are seeing what this baby boomer movement into Medicaid ultimately, you know, when they spend down, we’ll do from a deficit perspective. I mean, this is going to crush Medicaid programs. So there are states that are starting to focus on this correctly, and come forward with sort of minimal levels of benefits that would be mandatory in the state funded by payroll tax if you’re in the public program, or with proof of having adequate private sector coverage.

Michael Hughes 11:40
Yeah. And that’s the Washington State Program, right. So if Washington state has a payroll tax, it’s going to go into a fund that is going to fund the long term care benefit in the Medicaid program.

Tom Beauregard 11:52
Sure, exemption for individuals is if they have a qualified, private sector plan.

Michael Hughes 11:59
Yeah, but I gotta think it I mean, look, there’s other great Medicaid benefits that we know about, I know California, and other states will pay families for caregiving duties, which is huge. If you have to leave a job, or if you have to work part time and things like that, that’s great, but just the act, I mean, again, going back to that persona, that couple that have had that, that at home for decades and decades. And now the assets are in orbit, to afford things they may have to sell that they have to spend down to Medicaid. I mean, that’s a pretty humbling process, you know,

Tom Beauregard 12:31
and increasingly difficult because the states are concerned about the Medicaid budget correctly. So the five year look back in Medicaid, it’s, you know, those, the sort of eligibility will tighten up over time as the financial strain of long term care really starts to hit the states, you need some combination of public sector action, which we’re starting to see at the state level, and private sector innovation. And that’s where we’re fixated, it’s in creating more affordable extended care, long term care solutions for middle income families.

Michael Hughes 13:03
And looking at this, you know, the history of this from a private sector standpoint, and we’ve had, we had a lot of long term care. I don’t remember, you know, when I first started at AARP, we sort of saw this sort of wave of long term care, insurance. I mean, maybe it’s not a way this is my perspective on being a brand new American immigrant at that point. So it wasn’t in history. But there has been this long term care insurance, they don’t offer these long term care insurance plans anymore. What’s happened with traditional long term care insurance?

Tom Beauregard 13:34
Well, the market really pulled back, because the losses were pretty significant in sort of the original long term care programs. And you know, there’s a whole series of reasons for it, you know, technically interest rate assumptions were off, and mortality assumptions were off. So the programs were priced inadequately and loss ratio spiraled, what you’re seeing now, and I think the numbers are less than 5% of people in this country actually have a long term care program and people that buy long term care programs, they tend to be wealthier, right? It’s more of an asset protection play. So folks that have a financial advisor, they want to protect their considerable assets for their family. They buy policies relatively young, and they, you know, long term care policies are strenuously underwritten. And that gets back to the losses that occur, you know, with the original sort of set of programs. So the rejection rates are high. And so when you start to look at tax on that traditional long term care world, and then there’s another category of programs that are called hybrids, but they’re basically life insurance policies that allow you to accelerate for long term care. They tend to have a very high maximum of miles. They’ll cover your long term care, but they’re really expensive and they’re medically underwritten. So if somebody you know comes back to our couple at 65 A light comes on and when they decide that they need some form of care, they’re unlikely to get through the underwriting requirements for traditional programs. And if they do, they’re unlikely to be able to afford it. So that’s sort of the state of the current insurance industry for middle class families, which means, you know, just too expensive and not accessible. Yeah.

Michael Hughes 15:19
And I don’t know, you’d be a person that tackles small problems. We’ve outlined a really big set of problems here. I mean, not you know, the affordability of care or the number of people that are finding care. And not just having you know, it’s not just the money, it’s just actually having a game plan right. Now, you’re in this situation, how do you deal with it? So all that being said, you know, you’ve, you’ve really fallen in love with this problem, you know, United Church homes, we love human centered design. That’s one of the tenants of human centered design, you know, developed solutions by falling in love with the problem first, but you’re now addressing this right, that you’ve built, you know, HCG, secure, you’re starting to put offerings into the market. Can you describe what your approach is? How do we do things? What do you think the solution was? All?

Tom Beauregard 16:10
Right? So what we’ve done is we have three products in the market right now. One is called Legacy. One is called Home Care secure, and one is called Life select. And what those products have in common is back to sort of my description of that family. They’re easy to access, meaning they have very high acceptance rates without medical underwriting. So it’s a simplified underwriting process, we’re thinking about that 65 year old couple, how do they access care. The second thing that they have in common is that they have lower limits, and it’s additional Long Term Care, lower coverage amounts. And what we’re trying to do for families is to say, hey, cover that two and a half or three year gap, if that’s what you can afford as a middle income family. And from an actuarial standpoint, that’s what you ought to target, don’t over-insure. So they have what you know, in sort of insurance terms, is lower coverage level shorter tails. And that’s important as well, because it makes them more affordable, and less risky for the insurance markets. The third thing they have in common, which is really important, and you touched on this, is we’ve integrated a set of services for families that are secondary to the insurance but really important. So you know, back to that couple, most middle income people, they retire, they don’t have advanced care plans, a high percentage of them surprisingly, don’t have wills, even though they own homes. So these are families that don’t have dedicated financial advisors, they’ve been putting money into their 401 Ks, they don’t typically have an insurance broker relationship, because they’ve been relying on employer based coverage. So they come into retirement, they haven’t really given a lot of thought to long term care, they don’t have the right documentation in place. So what we’ve done with our insurance products is surround them with services. So when someone buys one of our policies, we can help them put a will together, we have a relationship with a company called trust, and we’ll help them with their advanced care plan. If they need long term care support, we have a strategic relationship with the wealthy and the wealthy are fabulous. So our members get access to all their self service content, and their care coordinators, if they need to make a plan for extended care. I will take you through all the services, but we have seven sort of strategic relationships that are way upstream of the insurance need of what we’re there, and we’re helping people do is to say, here’s a checklist, you’re just retired, here are the things that you should have in place we can help you. So it’s a variety of services that we offer, but they’re tied into the insurance, which is really targeting these middle income families. And, you know, basically getting them prepared for a potential long term care need.

Michael Hughes 18:53
Yeah. And so just I mean, it’s, you know, we always talk about this thing about getting people to eat their vegetables, right. And let me ask you a question under that scenario. So I’m, if I’m retiring, or rather, I’m now in a position to take Medicare. I’m used to paying premiums to an employer. Now, is it my do I got extra money now that I’m sort of with the employer program, and now I’m with Medicare, and then yeah,

Tom Beauregard 19:24
it’s, it’s, it’s a good it’s a great way to look at it. And we actually have a good number of large Medicare brokerage entities that are selling our products. So that’s the very reason somebody is coming out of the workforce. They’re moving into Medicare, which is subsidized. And they have a gap, they have a gap in this extended care space. So we actually have one of our large brokerage entities that focuses on the Medicare market, starting to bundle our extended care products into med sup. So that’s, you know, I think that’s probably you know, it wasn’t our idea, but It’s a really smart way to align with that retirement of that. We also have long term care brokers who are moving forward marketing our programs. And they’re doing that because it opens up the middle market to them, typically, they just sell to much wealthier people back to that asset planning model. And then we have employers and affinity groups who see this as relevant and are starting campaigns.

Michael Hughes 20:24
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it just seems like he’s like you do your health check. I mean, there’s this wellness check. And so if I get the journey here, you know, I’ll come in and all, you know, all, again, that that pricing, I don’t get to rattle off a bunch of prices here. But you know, the affordability is for people that are, you know, are middle income. They get the policy immediately they’re offered resources to help with sort of those checklists, things you got to have in place. Yep. I guess it’s just really about trying to find that magic moment where people have a brilliant kit. I mean, because again, you know, you’ve got, you know, folks, again, you’re a guy that was an executive at one of the largest health payers in the country, you struggled with organizing care at time of need, I mean, there’s this great equalizer that seems to happen. You mentioned wealthy, like the thought of wealth. So wealthy is we have a service that United Church homes call a guide, where it’s kind of a concierge or a resource to help you navigate challenging issues and aging, like, you know, finding a home care company or getting on a waiver program or things like that. But it looks like the wealthy are able to kind of offer something at this planning stage. And then when you’re actually in a time of need, you’ve got you’ve got, I guess, when you’re talking to your products, someone will buy 50 6080 100 $200,000 worth of coverage, that they’re starting to get those resources. And then now, but so you plan that you offer planning support at the start, you’re in contact with people, because I’ll tell you something, man with my life insurance program from USAA, I hear from them once a year, when my Pol, you know, just to reconfirm my, my policy that what I pay every single month, between the time where they sort of get these resources, and then the time of claim, are you still keeping in touch with them? We are so

Tom Beauregard 22:19
very specifically, when someone receives their policy, what’s called their fulfillment, get the description of all the services that come upstream from the insurance, then we’re doing regular outreach, trying to engage members, sending them checklists, letting them know what services are available, directing them to content that we’re delivering. So we’re absolutely focused on engaging with consumers. It really helps them take advantage of the services and have a plan. I mean, if you fall into that category, you know, 3%, you never need the long term care insurance. There’s still value in all these upstream services in terms of getting your life organized for your loved ones. What’s

Michael Hughes 22:59
been what sort of feedback you’re hearing there, I mean, it’s, you know, I’ve lived through experiences that, you know, ARP that where I worked in home care others where, again, it’s just this idea that it you’re seeing it, you know, and I’m an Economics geek, so I can see the wave. And by the way, with Ruth Rosberg, we do not call it a tsunami because tsunamis are disruptive. So it’s hashtag ageism? Is there anything that sort of comes to mind or has learned about, you know, what kind of motivates somebody to take action here? Are there certain types of isn’t just a certain type of person that’s more of a planner, or, I mean, again, with the way that you develop this set of solutions, you’ve gone through a lot of tests and learn,

Tom Beauregard 23:43
I think, and we’re pretty early. But I would say it’s sort of the personal event that occurs, right? Someone’s parents went through this and an adult child, 5060 years old, got drawn in and realized how difficult this was, and then recognized that they, they have that gap, right. So there’s the personal event that will draw it that will motivate people towards products like this. But I also think that we were touching on this, it’s that moment, you know, transitioning into Medicare, or if you have a relationship with a broker who reaches out and says, Hey, wait, you know, this is a gap in your plan, right? You’ve got life insurance, you have dental, you’ve gotten Medicare, you know, you bought your vision plant, but this is a gap. So I think there’s different ways to get people to eat their vegetables, I think the most powerful is certainly that personal experience, which again, more and more baby boomers are living through.

Michael Hughes 24:36
Yeah, and I think that it’s I mean, we always like to say that, you know, there are brands out there that have really just spent decades just, you know, just putting their association between you know, help a time of need and, and a situation you fall into I’m thinking of things like a place for mom and all that. Where you know, you’re talking about solutions that emerge, you know, right at that moment, right. And you reach for it, you know. And I mean, that’s, I mean, look, you’re early into this space, you’re building the brand you’re working through, you know, these channels. And do you see any? I mean, I know, we’ve done a lot of conversations on the show with people in the venture capital series space. I’m hearing more and more about an interest in FinTech solutions, right? Sure. Ha, ha. Are you seeing kind of this momentum where I mean, you’re in the space, other players are getting into this space? How’s the energy around fintech? Right now? Yeah,

Tom Beauregard 25:37
There’s a lot of interest and money flowing towards caregiver solutions, right? The moment where you actually need to make a plan. And then there’s a lot of movement in the sort of flowing into the sort of the FinTech from a underwriting perspective, you know, more efficient underwriting, you know, what we’re focused on is bringing it together. And I think that kind of is, you know, what we view as our secret sauce, which is we’re creating these unique insurance plans that are easy to access, and we’re bringing in the support services. The experience that we’ve had with this is really high conversion rates at and through the sales process. And frankly, a lot of large brokerage entities distributions, sources, who are coming into contract because they see this issue and they think that they can effectively promote and

Michael Hughes 26:32
selling where my mind goes now is just kind of back to those players that were offering these solutions back in the 80s. And 90s. You’re Hancock’s credentials, the cheese Genworth and all of that. Have they got it? I mean, I know they’ve got probably a lot of claims that are on their books right now. And it takes a lot of capital to cover. I mean, are we seeing innovation from the big players? Are they now looking into these kinds of more hybrid or fixed indemnity or whatever types of? I

Tom Beauregard 27:00
think that the short answer is less than you might anticipate? Because, you know, you touched on this, they’re managing their books, and the industry got pretty badly burned. So there’s a lot of sensitivity on, you know, the offeree products with simplified underwriting, even if they do have sort of lower coverage amounts or shorter tails.

Michael Hughes 27:21
Yeah. And before we wrap up on this subject, I just want to ask, well, first of all, we always like to ask our guests these three questions about their own personal experience with aging. And I know we prep and you’re fine with grilling me on this one. We, you know, this show is a hopeful Show. This show features folks that are really addressing the big issues that we have with agents here. And I mean, how do you know, you have a sense of hope about the future? Is this something where you see there’s lights at the end of the tunnel? Like, are you starting to see things come into place? Are you worried? Are you what gets you excited about moving forward with this project? Yeah, I

Tom Beauregard 28:04
got a ton of energy on what we’re doing. And just because it is such a large problem, and the reception we’re getting from the market, you know, brokers and consumers early on, is really strong. So I believe in what we’re doing, I think we’re designing programs, and creating these integrated solutions in a biased but in a really smart way. And we’re getting a solid initial reception. So I’m very optimistic.

Michael Hughes 28:33
That’s awesome. Okay, so now to get to our three questions. Okay, are you ready? Ready? Ready? This is great. Because usually in my other questions, I basically freeform it. And I tend to ask the four questions at once. So thank you for being able to unpack that and come up with it. Of course the response. Also shout out to my mom, I’m trying to speak slower on the podcast lessons. Okay, question number one, Tom. When you think about how you’ve aged, what do you think has changed about you, or grown with you, that you really like about yourself? Yeah, I

Tom Beauregard 29:06
I would say I’ve given this some thought it’s patience, right? It’s recognizing that you can’t control everything. And it’s having the patience to be persistent. And, you know, just keep at it. And that’s, I think that’s, that’s a major factor as you get older.

Michael Hughes 29:23
Gotcha. But now, the question is, what surprised you the most about what you made?

Tom Beauregard 29:29
I think it gets to the question you asked earlier, it’s just that I have passion and ongoing energy to solve problems in an area where I’ve got, you know, frankly, decades of expertise. So just applying my subject matter, expertise, and network to a problem that I think I can solve.

Michael Hughes 29:50
It’s awesome. But number three, is there someone that you’ve met, or been in your life that has set a good example for you in aging someone that’s inspired you to age with abundance?

Tom Beauregard 30:00
Yeah, I’m actually surrounded by people that are, you know, older, right? 6070s 80s 90s, even who are just still going for it, you know. So I, you know, without naming names, I have a friend who’s 74, who still competes every year in the CrossFit Games. And as you know, at that gym five days a week, one of our investors is Alan Patrick Croft for primetime. And Alan is an absolute inspiration in terms of the energy he brings the ideas that he brings. So I’m just surrounded by people that aren’t worried about their age, and just keep going for it.

Michael Hughes 30:44
And that’s terrific. And that’s something we’ve heard from other guests that, you know, just having these. And I think it goes both ways, you know, sort of being inspired by younger people, older people, but there seems to be this through a line of energy, passion, curiosity, that kind of keeps people wanting to turn the pages of their life.

Tom Beauregard 31:04
And to me, that’s actually a really great point. It’s not right , are you interested in staying on a learning curve? Do you have the energy to make a difference?

Michael Hughes 31:11
I love that. And I think that’s just a great way to wrap up our show, Tom, very much appreciate you being on the show today. And before action for I think our listeners, Tom, where can we find you? Where can we learn more about HCG seer,

Tom Beauregard 31:27
just go to HCG secure.com You’ve got a ton of ways to contact us. Great content, I think and product descriptions. Gotcha.

Michael Hughes 31:37
So a special thing, the biggest thanks, of course, to our listeners, for listening to this episode of The Art of aging, probably an abundant agent podcast series from United Church homes. And we want to hear from you. How concerned are you about the future costs of long term care? What are you doing? To? To look ahead, perhaps and how do you anticipate aging? What surprised you? This podcast: Who is your abundant aging hero? We want to hear from you. So visit us at abundantagingpodcast.com to share your ideas. You can also give us your feedback when you visit the Ruth Frost Parker Center website. That’s unitedchurchhomes.org/parker-center. As Tom said, find out more about HCG, secure at HCGsecure.com. And again, our sincere thanks and we will see you next time.

Tom Beauregard 32:25
Thanks Mike. This was fun.